Which Way, New York Dems?

New York City is on the cusp of an election in which what once looked impossible has begun to seem inevitable. Zohran Mamdani, a democratic socialist member of the New York state Assembly, is heavily favored to beat Andrew Cuomo, New York’s onetime Democratic governor and a former icon of the party establishment, in a race for mayor that has become among the most-watched in the nation.

Cuomo and Mamdani articulate two vastly different visions for New York City — and where the Democratic Party is going overall. This week on The Intercept Briefing, Akela Lacy speaks to people hoping to see each of those two visions fulfilled.

“Traditionally, we’ve thought about politics as left, right, and center,” says Alyssa Cass, a Democratic strategist who has worked on local and national campaigns. “Zohran offered a message that was less about ideology and more about disrupting a failed status quo that is working for almost no one.”

Cass, who worked on Andrew Yang’s mayoral campaign in 2021, isn’t working for Mamdani but says his candidacy indicates “that Democrats can win when we have ideas.”

In the view of Jim Walden, a former mayoral candidate who is now backing Cuomo, those ideas are “dangerous and radical policies.” He says Mamdani’s popularity is an indication that “there’s going to be a flirtation with socialism and maybe some populist push” among Democrats. 

But “ultimately,” Walden says, “the party will come back closer to the center.”

Chi Ossé, a City Council member who endorsed Mamdani, sees Mamdani’s success as evidence of the opposite. “We could have gone back to or continued this trend of electing centrist, moderate Democrats,” Ossé says. Instead, he thinks that New Yorkers want “someone who ran as a loud and proud democratic socialist who has always fought on the left.”

While New York City is preparing for a general election, Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa is unlikely to win — turning the race almost into a second Democratic primary. “The party is now confronted with a choice,” said Lacy, “between a nominee who has become the new face of generational change in politics and a former governor fighting for his political comeback. The results could reveal where the party’s headed in next year’s midterms and beyond.”

Listen to the full conversation of The Intercept Briefing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Transcript

Akela Lacy: Welcome to The Intercept Briefing. I’m Akela Lacy. 

There’s less than two weeks left before New Yorkers elect their next mayor. The race has drawn national attention — both from President Donald Trump and from observers who see it as a reckoning over the future of the Democratic Party. 

PIX11 News: Zohran Mamdani continues to hold an insurmountable lead over former Gov. Andrew Cuomo in the race for New York City mayor, as long as Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa stays in it. 

AL: Even though New York Assemblyman Zohran Mamdani decisively won the Democratic primary in June, the general election has pretty much boiled down to a contest between two candidates trying to claim the Democratic mantle. There’s Mamdani — the party’s nominee — and former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who resigned in 2021 amid sexual harassment allegations that he now denies and has been chasing the mayoralty as his political comeback. Since he lost the primary, Cuomo’s running on an independent ballot line called “Fight and Deliver,” but he’s still pitching himself as a Democrat.

There’s also Curtis Sliwa — the founder of the Guardian Angels, Republican candidate, and a thorn in the side of those who want him out of the race to clear a lane on the right for Cuomo. That’s the position of billionaires like John Catsimatidis and Bill Ackman, who have been pushing to get Sliwa out. 

Curtis Sliwa: Come on Ackman, stay in your lane. Does he know anything about politics? No. Does he live in New York City? No. He lives in Chappaqua, the whitest suburb of America, where even the lawn jockeys are white. 

AL: It’s also the position of President Trump. 

Donald Trump: We don’t need a communist in this country. But if we have one, I’m going to be watching over him very carefully, on behalf of the nation. 

AL: The Trump administration already got its wish when current New York City Mayor Eric Adams dropped out of the race last month, and the conventional wisdom was that many Adams supporters would flock to Cuomo. But after a federal corruption indictment that disappeared when Trump swept into office — remember that? — Adams’s support was already plummeting. And with Sliwa unlikely to become mayor himself, the race is really seen as a contest between Mamdani and Cuomo.

Now, Mamdani and Cuomo represent two possible paths the Democratic Party could take: a democratic socialist who was once deemed too far to the left to pull off a primary and is now heavily favored to win the general versus a former Democratic governor who can count the Republican president in his camp. What does the saga say about the state of Democratic politics across the nation?

That question is facing Democrats at a time when the national party is still finding itself after a crushing loss that returned Donald Trump to the White House. 

Two years before that, a humiliating performance in the 2022 midterms threw the New York state Democratic Party into crisis, when Democrats in the state lost congressional seats and helped hand Republicans control of the House of Representatives. In the state that gave us both insurgent leader Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and the two top Democrats in Congress — Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries — the party is now confronted with a choice between a nominee who has become the new face of generational change in politics and a former governor fighting for his political comeback. The results could reveal where the party’s headed in next year’s midterms and beyond.

So today, we’re going to talk to people hoping to see each of those two visions fulfilled. First, we’ll hear from a City Council member backing Mamdani and a Democratic strategist who’s been following the race but isn’t working for any campaign. And after the break, we’ll hear from a former mayoral candidate who dropped out and endorsed Cuomo, saying he doesn’t want to see the Democratic Party veer toward socialism.

Joining me now is Chi Ossé. He’s the Council Member for New York City’s 36th District. He endorsed Mamdani in April.

Welcome to the show, Council Member Ossé.

Chi Ossé: Thank you so much for having me on.

AL: Also joining us is Alyssa Cass, a Democratic media strategist based in New York City and partner at Slingshot Strategies. She served as an adviser to top elected officials, candidates, and causes at the national, state, and local levels.

Welcome to the show, Alyssa.

Alyssa Cass: Hi. It is so good to be here. 

AL: We’re speaking on Wednesday, October 22nd. [Editor’s note: On October 24, Politico reported that Rep. Hakeem Jeffries will be endorsing Zohran Mamdani.]

And just a note, we are not endorsing any candidate on this podcast, and we’re focusing on the pressures building both locally and nationally on the Democratic party.

To start, especially for our listeners outside of New York, why has Mamdani’s campaign become a national story? You have Fox News running wall-to-wall coverage, Trump calling to deport him — what exactly is bringing so much national attention to this race? Chi, we’ll start with you. 

CO: Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, I believe that it’s one of the biggest races that we’re seeing post-November of 2024. And after Republicans secured levels within Congress as well as the presidency, people are looking at the Democratic Party and seeing how we respond to that especially within the New York City mayoral race.

You know, we could have gone two ways. We could have gone back to or continued this trend of electing centrist, moderate Democrats — or we could have gone with Zohran Mamdani, someone who ran as a loud and proud democratic socialist who has always fought on the left, who speaks up about Palestinian rights and sovereignty. And this race showed that the party is accepting and willing to move to the left. 

Zohran ran a very creative, loud race that was centered around affordability and did so without being tied to the financial institutions and entities that usually elect our mayors here within New York City. And made a lot of noise during the campaign, galvanized a lot of people, and made some history in terms of how the campaign was run. So with all of that, it made this a historic race, one that has caught the ears of many and has skyrocketed Zohran into the place where he is today.

AL: Alyssa, I want to bring you in. I mean, you worked on the 2021 mayoral race, you’ve worked on national races. What’s your perspective on what is making this resonate with people outside of New York or have the potential ramifications that go beyond the city? 

AC: I think about that question in kind of two primary buckets. The first is, why is this so interesting? One is, I think that it offers us a view of politics and the contours of politics that’s actually more realistic or how actual people think about it. Traditionally, we’ve thought about politics as left, right, and center. And I think that the major fault line in politics now, or how people think about it, is that the status quo is not working for almost anyone.

And if we don’t reform the status quo, we are going to break it. And Zohran offered a message that was less about ideology and more about disrupting a failed status quo that is working for almost no one. And that approach to the race offers Democrats a really powerful path forward. And as we think about how do we reconstitute winning coalitions — and that’s something I think has been a little under appreciated about Zohran’s win — he fundamentally reconstituted the electorate.

If you live in New York City — if you are working class, middle class, or even upper middle class — New York City is not working for you. If you are anyone who interacts with public services on a daily basis, if you’re sending your kid to public school, if you’re taking the bus, if you’re riding the subway, New York City life is really like — hard. 

AL: You can say the f-word, it’s OK. 

AC: It’s really fucking hard. And he was able to put together a coalition of, frankly, almost everyone, just other than the very wealthy. And frankly offer an optimistic view of politics that brought us together about what unites us: that no one’s having an easy time. Obviously there are different degrees to that, but these parallel crises of affordability for almost every American tapping into that is the path forward for anyone who wants to win. And I think that those two reasons: of one, seeing the electorate not in these ideological terms that I think mostly people like us think about, but normal people don’t, and the ability to rebuild a democratic coalition, is exactly what people are talking about, and it’s not done through, like, big focus groups about what men are thinking or what words we’re saying, but how to build a coalition of people for whom the status quo isn’t working, which is almost everyone. 

AL: We’re speaking on the morning after a shocking immigration raid in Manhattan’s Chinatown where federal agents arrested multiple people.

New York has sanctuary city laws that forbid cops and other local officials from coordinating with federal immigration enforcement. And as of this recording, Mayor Eric Adams and the NYPD say the city had nothing to do with the raid.

Both Cuomo and Mamdani have put out statements condemning the raid. But more specifically in a moment like this, how should a New York City mayor respond? Chi, start with you. 

CO: Absolutely. Well, I don’t believe a word that comes out of Eric Adams’s mouth. And he is an accomplice if not a lapdog to Donald Trump. So in terms of the statements that were shared, I do not believe him.

A mayor, and hopefully the next mayor, will uphold our sanctuary laws and also work with the NYPD and use his authority to make sure that all people who live here in New York City are protected regardless of their immigration status when it comes to federal agents infringing on the rights of the land here in New York.

AC: Yeah, I think something we saw last night, but we’ve seen kind of throughout the past few months, are reminders of, is that Donald Trump is coming for New York City regardless. And what New Yorkers want is not someone who is promising to work with Trump, or can manage Trump, or who has a history of negotiating with Trump. That we’re actually seeing that like that doesn’t matter.

We really need someone who is principled, incredibly disciplined in saying, “Donald Trump, hands off New York.” And we’ve actually seen this dynamic, I think, play out in a really interesting way throughout this general election. I think that you saw, at the end of the primary, you saw Cuomo beginning to try to socialize with New Yorkers. “If Donald Trump’s coming after New York, you want someone who can give him a call and talk him down.” We’re seeing that like that’s not possible, was never possible.

There was so much coverage about New York City’s shift to the right, the increase in New York City voters who voted for Trump. They were voting for Trump, I think what we’re seeing now is not because they wanted ICE raids that destroy communities, destroy our economies, and rip our New York City neighbors from their schools and their homes — they wanted someone who was listening. So the best way to actually fight Trump and to rebuild a Democratic Party is not through compromise, but really through a pursuit of our principles and our values.

AL: And I want to draw this out to the national level too, because this is extremely parallel with the criticisms, you know, facing national Democrats — Chuck Schumer, et cetera, Hakeem Jeffries in Congress — and this idea that at the beginning of Trump’s term, national Democrats really were sitting back and saying, “Is there a world in which we can play nice with Trump and have some leverage, some negotiating, leverage some power? Something to bring to the table.” And it quickly became obvious that that wasn’t going to work. But also that was extremely infuriating to voters. And I think that’s why you’re seeing Democrats pivot with this shutdown strategy. Whereas back in March, they were saying, let’s try to work with Republicans where we can.

But I think what you’re saying, Alyssa, is that that is not something that voters have the patience for anymore. And I think that’s not just a New York City thing, that’s a national thing. 

AC: Yeah. I think part of why Donald Trump won or why you’ve seen Democrats struggle is that when the status quo isn’t working, bad ideas beat no ideas. And we’ve often been the party and had candidates that are “no ideas.” And what we are seeing is that Democrats can win when we have ideas. Zohran is a case study of that. So when trying to manage or handle Trump, the idea isn’t to go along or get along. That’s a “no idea.”

We need new ideas and preparedness. I think one of the biggest tasks of the future mayor is getting prepared for an escalation in the assault on New York City. We know he’s coming. I think we have every reason to expect National Guard or federal troops and making sure we’re prepared, right? Making sure we are setting the rules of the road with NYPD and other agencies and cooperating with that sort of incursion. And that will be like day one after the general election, the real work of the mayor-elect.

AL: Chi, do you want to add anything on the tail end of that?

CO: I absolutely agree with Alyssa’s point. I also do want to note that on the topic of national Democrats and them wanting to work with Trump and at least see if there’s a middle ground — Trump doesn’t give a fuck, right? And his whole modem operandi is to embarrass Democrats and has been doing so both with Chuck and Hakeem.

In addition to that, our leadership in the Democratic Party somewhat ushered this type of behavior in. Back when Mahmoud Khalil was disappeared right here in the city, both of those individuals were very quiet, if not timid, on making statements and being very loud about their statements in the disappearing of people and disappearing of Mahmoud Khalil. They kind of set the precedent for this to happen, especially here in this city.

So to have a mayor-elect and future mayor who’s going to speak truth to power and stand on business when it comes to how evil ICE is, right? And call-out how un-American and Gestapo-like that ICE is, is going to be something that I believe will resound with New Yorkers. And that New Yorkers want to see their elected officials, their mayor, their Democrats fighting for, right?

AL: So jumping back in time a little bit, shortly after the primary, there was a ton of reporting on how New York’s wealthiest business leaders were working to defeat Mamdani, including offering to help Adams find a private sector job if he dropped out. One of the city’s biggest real estate developers was floated as an option at one point. But last week, JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon said he would support Mamdani if he won. What’s your reaction to that? If Mamdani wins, Alyssa, what sorts of roadblocks can he expect from the city’s elite? 

AC: Mamdani’s done a lot of work to assuage and do a charm campaign with the business community. 

AL: Right. 

AC: Not because he’s going to betray his agenda, but because it’s a savvy observation that they’re actually pretty easy to pacify, right? And is avoiding, I think, some of the missteps that Bill de Blasio did. Bill de Blasio got pretty beat up immediately by the business community. But the business community is actually easy to charm, right?

The thing that they care about the most, that most materially impacts them — like, let’s say raising taxes — a mayor of New York City actually doesn’t have much, doesn’t have any control over. So when it comes to the business community, I think that a little bit of engaging, showing that you’ll pick up their calls — which Bill de Blasio was unwilling to do — goes a long way.

And that ultimately, the mayor of New York City is not materially impacting these people who are really out for themselves. And that actually creates an environment where [it’s] easy to give them a little face-time and then I think they shut up. 

AL: To your point, you said he’s meeting with these people not because he is going to betray his agenda, but that is what some people are concerned about. 

AC: I think you want to like — Listen, being mayor is really fucking hard, and you have a very limited runway before everyone is going to start shitting on you and be very critical. And it’s hard to implement your agenda.

Clearing the decks from a chorus of haters or trying to lessen them a bit is not kowtowing. It’s just paving the way for an easier time, because there are going to be actual crises to deal with. So I think it’s clearing a smoother runway for when you’re actually sworn in. And there’s so much out of your control — like there could be a snowstorm that becomes a disaster — that you want to clear the decks, shut up the haters by dishing out a little sugar. That’s savvy, not being compromised.

AL: I want to put this to both of you. How can we expect those same people to react to a Cuomo win? Chi, we’ll start with you. 

CO: The business people? 

AL: Yeah. And you know, the elite of of New York, the people who, you know, originally were partnering with Bill Ackman to try to figure out how to— 

CO: Yeah. I mean, I think they want Cuomo to win, obviously.

I do believe that a majority of the elite want Cuomo to win. I think it’s more about what Zohran means for politics, right? He was able to win without the backing and being tethered again to these financial institutions. And many of these elite folks want elected officials that they can control. And if someone can win as mayor of New York City without being tethered to their power, what could that mean for city council, state Assembly, state Senate, and even some of our congressional seats? 

AC: Yeah. And like, here’s my thing through all of this, when Bill Ackman throws a temper tantrum, or John Catsimatidis, which I think that’s the right pronunciation, throws a temper tantrum, I think people see that and it moves people toward Zohran. Like, wasn’t the whole point of Zohran’s election is that people are sick and tired of people like Bill Ackman paying little in taxes and having a massive apartment and having the influence that they do, right?

Like that status quo that these people are screaming about that Zohran is going to disrupt is the very thing people don’t like. So yeah, I’m sure they’re going to have a meltdown. And they are welcome to move to Boca, and we will be thrilled to convert their brownstones and mega penthouses into multifamily dwellings to further make a dent in our housing crisis.

AL: Going back to Cuomo. I know that some members, some city council members, were stripped from their roles in budget negotiations after backing Cuomo. Chi, what is the mood toward Cuomo among city councilors right now? 

CO: There’s a higher definite chance that Zohran becomes the next mayor, and regardless of where people fall within that politically ideological spectrum, I think people do want to be on good terms with the mayor, right? So I do think that there has been a vast distancing from Andrew Cuomo.

AC: And the councilman makes a great point. And I think that is revealing of a bigger dynamic that I think is worth pointing out. People who are really watching New York politics are like, this is not like a real race, right? It is being treated as a very competitive general election for reasons that are divorced from the mechanics and the central dynamics of the race. 

Zohran had a winning message and a winning coalition, and Andrew Cuomo did not. None of those dynamics have changed. And you see the rest of the political class in New York very much understanding that. And we are thrilled for the attention and continue to go along with the ruse that Andrew Cuomo would like us to believe that this is still a competitive election and that he somehow has a path, but he does not.

AL: So far, only five Democrats representing New York City in Congress have endorsed Mamdani, the party’s nominee: Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Nydia Velázquez, who both endorsed him before he won the primary; Adriano Espaillat, Jerry Nadler, and Yvette Clarke, who endorsed him after he won. Gov. Kathy Hochul and Attorney General Letitia James got on board. Notably absent are Democrats’ top two leaders in Congress — Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, both of whom have addressed this in the last week or so and said they are still planning to weigh in. [Editor’s note: On October 24, Politico reported that Rep. Hakeem Jeffries will be endorsing Zohran Mamdani.]

Many other Democrats have backed Cuomo, others whose candidates lost in the primary haven’t endorsed anyone else. What’s happening here? Are there two Democratic Parties? 

AC: So what is happening here is that the leaders, the elected leaders of the Democratic Party look so fucking stupid, I’m sorry.

Honestly, it would’ve been better for them to just like, never endorse him and say like, “I’m just not going to make an endorsement in this race. I didn’t in the primary,” and like, move the fuck on. This is really the worst of both worlds. And just the message it sends. You hear from both of those leaders that we are a big-tent party, but apparently not so big if you have certain concerns about certain issues. 

The biggest discomfort with Zohran seems to be around foreign policy issues that have nothing to do with fucking New York City and also are so out of the mainstream of where the median Democratic voter is in New York City or beyond, it further reveals that there is a gap between the people who are calling all of the shots and regular voters. It only serves to put them, to make them seem more out of touch and more beholden not to rank-and-file Democrats but something else. 

AL: Chi, do you want to add anything? 

CO: Sure, yeah. Their donors won’t let them.

AL: Who? Which donors? Who are we talking about? 

CO: All of them. 

AL: Can you say more? 

CO: Yeah. Probably BlackRock, the largest landlord in this country, probably AIPAC.

Yeah, I think those donors will not let them endorse Zohran Mamdani for mayor. 

AC: Those sorts of donors give way more money at this point to the Republican Party and to Republican elected officials. Like, we are getting very little out of this. It shows a very — a view of politics and where to get money that is really out of date.

CO: Yeah. It’s the same donors that don’t let them fight against Donald Trump, right? 

AL: Alyssa, you brought up the foreign policy thing, and Chi, you’re mentioning AIPAC too. Mamdani has also faced criticism from his left and much on his right, particularly on this Israel–Gaza issue.

Last week, he was asked during the mayoral debate about the ongoing saga around this phrase Mamdani himself has never used — “globalize the intifada” — but which many Democrats and pro-Israel critics have urged him to denounce. This is a phrase that many pro-Palestine advocates say simply calls for the end of the Israeli occupation – “intifada” is an Arabic word meaning uprising or resistance. But many pro-Israel Mamdani critics have turned it into a political cudgel to spread this fear that Mamdani won’t keep Jewish New Yorkers safe.

I wrote about this last week, and you can find the story at The Intercept. Mamdani has drawn criticism for similar comments, including that he threw the movement for Palestine under the bus or that he’s a Zionist. Is there a “right” way for Dems to play this? Chi, I’ll start with you. 

CO: I don’t necessarily see it as a right way for Democrats to play this. I think Mamdani has 38 percent of support from the Jewish vote to Andrew Cuomo’s 42 percent. That’s basically equally matched. I believe for this issue, this is something that Jewish voters are definitely taking a look at, and a sizable amount support Mamdani and his efforts.

AL: Alyssa, is there a right way for Democrats to play this issue? 

AC: So it seems to me that his approach of not ever endorsing or supporting the flattening of Gaza was the right approach. This is an issue where you will never please everyone, but the majority of Jewish Democratic voters believe there there’s a genocide that’s been happening in the Middle East. 

AL: Right.

AC: Are uncomfortable with the current no-strings-attached relationship with a radical right-wing Israeli government. And to me, when you’re looking at where’s the right place to be, I’m not sure it’s that hard. Because what is popular and what is morally righteous are the same position right now. 

AL: I’m going to switch gears a little bit and go back to early this year, January, February. It’s cold out. The mayoral race is just beginning. Everyone’s wondering if Eric Adams will even run again because he’s still under indictment.

There are whispers about Cuomo, the assumption is that if he does jump in, everyone else might as well pack it up and go home. Why was he considered such a shoe-in? 

CO: Cuomo did a really good job at creating this paper tiger effect on the political establishment. And it was very unclear as to what was going to happen within this mayoral race, especially with the amount of candidates that were jumping in and was able to secure some union endorsements from the get-go.

There is this notion within our prior understanding of the New York City electorate, that a lot of voters who turn out in these elections — usual voters who turn out in these elections — will vote for the name that they know. And, you know, Andrew Cuomo was a name for older Black voters and Latino voters and outer borough voters, which was a strategy that Eric Adams used to win in 2021. So it created this effect that really galvanized a lot of the New York City press corp as well, right, political press corp to aid in Cuomo’s efforts of making him seem as unstoppable as he appeared.

What was not taken into account was — and frankly could not be taken into account — was the movement that Zohran and New York City DSA were able to put together. It energized thousands, tens of thousands of new voters, folks who usually don’t come out and vote in New York City mayoral races.

AC: Actually, when I look back, Zohran ran the most big-D Democratic campaign of any of the candidates in the primary. While many of us political consultants had our heads up our own asses, myself included, feeling very fearful, seeing the red wave that had happened in New York City and thinking — We forgot that this is a deeply Democratic town, and a liberal or progressive one at that.

While the rest of the field was modulating on public safety or bringing in a more moderate tone to everything those campaigns were doing, Zohran ran a proud Democratic campaign, about making this city work for New Yorkers that was definitely democratic and the best sense of what being a classic Democrat was. And also understood — like they did something so well, but it was a very basic premise — that talking all of the time about the thing that people are thinking about and are keeping [them] up at night and are telling people is their number one concern is smart. The basic concept was not rocket science. And everyone else overcomplicating shit, created a real pathway for an insurgent candidate like Mamdani.

AL: Thank you Council Member Chi Ossé and Democratic strategist Alyssa Cass, we really appreciate you joining us on the Intercept Briefing. 

CO: Thank you so much for having us. 

AC: Thank you. 

[Break]

AL: We’re continuing the conversation about how the New York City mayoral race is shaping the future of the Democratic Party with Attorney Jim Walden. He’s endorsing Andrew Cuomo. Walden was running his own independent bid until early September, when he dropped out. His name will still be on the ballot in November — but he says he doesn’t want it there.

Jim, welcome to The Intercept Briefing.

Jim Walden: Thank you Akela. Thanks for having me. 

AL: We’re speaking to Jim on Thursday morning

So we have been talking about the future of the Democratic Party. There’s been a lot of discussion in this past year since Kamala Harris lost the presidential election about a desire for a fresh start in the party. How does Cuomo fit into that future?

JW: To the extent that the future of the Democratic [Party] as there’s a socialist future in there, I don’t think that Andrew Cuomo would ever be pushed that far. At the end of the day, he is a free market guy. He believes in the private sector. He believes that it’s critical for building, which is so important to the future of New York City.

And so I think that it’ll be super interesting from the perspective of someone who’s been a long time independent to see across the country and in particular in New York, where the party goes. My guess is that there’s going to be a flirtation with socialism and maybe some populist push but that ultimately the party will come back closer to the center.

AL: What are the policies that he’s running on right now that you see as emblematic of his potential to step into this leadership role at a critical moment in Democratic politics?

JW: Housing in New York City, I can’t stress this enough, is central to solving the affordability crisis. And just today there was a number of press reports that came out that talked about the fact that the market for rent-stabilized housing, which represents about a million units across the city, that landlords are in financial distress and 1 in 5 buildings is underwater and they’re delaying things like repairs. And that is having a very, very significant impact on particularly Black and brown tenants who make up a significant portion of the rent-stabilized portfolio.

So Andrew Cuomo is someone that has very close relationships with developers. He’s taken a lot of flack for that. But you know, when you have a fire, you’re calling firefighters. When you have a criminal running down the street, you call the cops. We have a housing crisis that if we can’t solve it, it’s going to have collateral consequences across our economy.

AL: So when you were running for mayor, you pitched yourself as the business community candidate, a reasonable moderate who knows how to work with the city’s elites and navigate the complexities of city government. And also as an outsider, who was someone who wasn’t a technocrat, someone who could appeal to some of the frustrations I think that people have had with the Democratic Party. What do you say to critics who might argue that the city’s billionaires are the people who most want Cuomo to win, and that this is a strategy to maintain the status quo?

JW: That is an incredibly important question. And let me just double down in a show of self-awareness. I’ve said quite clearly that Andrew Cuomo getting into the race was one of the reasons that I decided to run because I thought that we needed change and we needed new leadership. So I’m not running away from any of my prior positions.

Unfortunately, we have the candidates that we have, and I’ve said as clearly as I can that I think that they are all challenged candidates for different reasons, whether it’s experience, whether or not prior scandals and the like, but it was an uncomfortable choice that I had to make.

But I made that choice, Akela, a long time ago. But it is actually really surprising to me that [Mamdani] has taken off the way that he has. And as I saw him ascend, I was actually one of the first people that predicted— I had run a whole Monte Carlo simulation before the Democratic primary in four of the 10 simulations, Mamdani won, and those were predictably accurate. And as I saw him rise, I saw him in some ways embrace more what I think are, you know, dangerous and radical policies.

Akela Lacy: Yeah. So I want to go back to this idea of the status quo because — and I hear what you’re saying about your calculation both in jumping into the race and then removing yourself from the race because of the writing that you saw on the wall. But do you see Cuomo as a potential extension of that status quo? And if not, can you explain why not? 

Jim Walden: Status quo is, maybe we can sharpen that a little by saying that he’s an institutionalist, right? So I believe that it’s fair to say that, I’ll speak about me. I’m an institutionalist in the sense that for 23 years I’ve been bringing pro bono cases attacking city, state, and federal government for a lot of bad things that they’ve done to people. That doesn’t mean that I don’t support the institutions of democracy and our government. I do. And I believe that Andrew Cuomo is very much of the same ilk, although he may be more of an institutionalist because he’s been part of the governing elite, if you will. But at the same time I think that he will talk about changing the status quo, I think he’s going to change the status to quote completely when it comes to housing.

I know for sure that his plan is — and again, to be clear, I’m not in the Cuomo campaign. I did this as a matter of my own personal politics and my own belief in what was the best for the city. I know that he’s going to do everything he could possibly do to start building things right away. And that’s what we need. I mean, if you think about the most recent data on housing, right? 2024 is the most complete picture that we have. Mayor Adams, to his credit, oversaw the building of about 25,000 rent-stabilized apartments. That’s great. That’s that’s a big bump from where we’ve been. The problem is that we lost 11,000 of older units that were being warehoused. And so 25,000 come on, 11,000 go off. We need somewhere between, depending on whose estimate you look at — My best estimate was 50,000 rent-stabilized units a year.

Zohran Mamdani plan is only going to build 20,000 rent-stabilized apartments a year if it works. That’s something where I do trust Cuomo.

AL: We have some breaking news as we’re speaking. New York City Mayor Eric Adams is endorsing Cuomo for mayor after joining him courtside at the Knicks game on Wednesday night. Can we get your reaction to that, Jim?

JW: Yeah. So Adams endorsing Cuomo is really no surprise. You know, this kind of is a testament to again, all of the ways in which our political system is broken and in some ways dysfunctional.

Eric Adams, whatever it was a month ago, said that Andrew Cuomo was a snake and a liar, and then they’re sitting at the Knicks game together, and then there’s an endorsement the next day. You know, I think that those sorts of things turn off people. They turn off voters. How can you have a positive reaction to that?

But at the same time politics is politics, and at the end of the day it comes down to numbers. And with Cuomo and Sliwa in the race, Mamdani’s got a huge advantage. Just the math is the math. I mean, I’ve said this a million times and I don’t know how many people are listening to me on it.

AL: You mentioned Adam doing this turn toward Cuomo after calling him a snake, but you had similar words for Cuomo in May. You described him as “a tired snake oil salesman, who’s on his last leg.” What is it about his policies that have made you change your mind?

JW: So Cuomo while, I have deep, deep disagreements with him on a number of the things that have happened during the course of his career. He is a person that we need right now. Why? If you look at any projection — it doesn’t matter whether it’s inside the government or outside the government, unless some amazing, wonderful thing happens to the city — the minimum deficit that we’re going to have next year is $5 billion. And some of the estimates go up to something like nine, just next year. In the two years after that — again, unless there’s some sort of magic ointment that someone applies to our business community — the deficits are going to get much higher.

And in that environment when we need so much, and we are already in a distressed situation with tax revenue, there’s going to have to be bold moves that pay the bills for all the things that we need to do.

And Zohran Mamdani, he has said more times than I can count that he wants to dismantle or defund the police. And then he’s running on a platform that he says “I’m not trying to defund the police,” but he is trying to defund the police. And this is one of the things that’s so frustrating to see low-information voters bite on this hook. Which is, he’s saying he’s going to keep the current level of police the same. We are down — depending on whose estimate you want to look at — the range is somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 cops. No one’s really looking at the rate at which senior officers and detectives are filing for early retirement.

And there hasn’t been an enormous push to recruit. I think that at the end of the day, at the end of the year, if we end up flat, I think we’ll be lucky. But we need more cops. And he’s not being honest about the fact that he really is defunding the police by holding the current headcount.

And earlier when he was describing his community, his department of community safety, I was standing next to him at a full mayoral forum where he said he was going to fund that by taking $1 billion out of the NYPD overtime budget. I was standing right there. And then when he put the PRO plan out, maybe after getting some initial criticism and feedback, he claims that he’s going to pay for it by raising taxes, both corporate and individual. 

So I believe that he wants to defund the police, and I believe everything that he’s been saying for years about his perspective on NYPD, you know, he said he was going to apologize. He then pivoted and said, well, I’m going to do it privately with individual officers. I’m not going to issue a blanket apology. 

You know, I have a lot of cops who are friends and I can’t tell you the number of times, Akela, that cops have said to me, “Listen, if he’s going to be mayor and he’s going to change the CCRB, so the police commissioner has no power over choosing discipline for officers, I’m out of here.”

So and those are two of the key reasons that cops are leaving the city is because the CCRB, it always was a broken agency. I had planned to get rid of it with something that was much more effective in terms of getting at the bad apples in NYPD and not victimizing cops that were trying to do their jobs and got into bad situations that they tried their best to control, but still had a complaint filed against them.

So the CCRB, the extent to which they’re now being forced into overtime shifts that are akin to a indentured servitude at times, and lower starting salaries than is being competitive with other states outside of New York. That’s why we’re losing active-duty officers because it’s like, I don’t need this anymore. So that’s one example of a policy that I think is dangerous.

AL: There’s more that I can talk about but we’re getting close to time. So, Jim Walden, thank you so much for joining us on the Intercept Briefing. Really appreciate your time.

JW: Thank you for having me.

AL: That does it for this episode of The Intercept Briefing. 

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This episode was produced by Laura Flynn and Maia Hibbett. Sumi Aggarwal is our executive producer. Ben Muessig is our editor-in-chief. Chelsey B. Coombs is our social and video producer. Fei Liu is our product and design manager. Nara Shin is our copy editor. Will Stanton mixed our show. Legal review by David Bralow. 

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Until next time, I’m Akela Lacy. 

Thanks for listening.